Dig Series

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thunder
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Re: Dig Series

Post by thunder » Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:27 pm

John Kerry isn't a neutral source...

I prefer sources that presents several POVs: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... -teenagers Not that it makes me any wiser, but it gives me a fuller picture.

During the terror attack in Norway summer of 2011, Islamic terrorists claimed responsibility - and it was broadcasted all over the world, that it was an attack from Muslim terrorists. It turned out to be a Norwegian far-right extremist. So terror groups claiming responsibility for this, may not mean anything.

I hope this solves peacefully, and that it doesn't escalate into something uncontrollable.

ln419

Re: Dig Series

Post by ln419 » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:40 pm

I'm sorry Thunder, (and to all of you from England/aren't from England but who read The Guardian as your sole news source), but The Guardian is hardly un-biased toward Israel/"neutral source" either. I think you have to read MANY news outlets, ok, including the Guardian, but certainly include the US papers/links as well, and think "if Hamas/PLO/Fatah are handing out SWEETS, this means they are VERY happy about something that has happened/they have done" (ie: 9/11 World Trade Towers). Once you read several, say 6-8 different and varying sources then, and only then, can you make a fair and sort of balanced assessment on what may have transpired. As I've said every story has at least 3 sides, a, b, and the truth. For Jews living in that area, or whose children go to school in that area, whether or not one considers it Israel, disputed or not, right this second, it IS ISRAEL. Put yourself in the parent's shoes. Their kids hitchhiked like always, called the police like they were supposed to ONCE THEY WERE KIDNAPPED...AND THEY WERE KIDNAPPED, the police screwed up, yes... but they were kidnapped by Palestinians-period. Sometimes Israel can be quiet for many years at a time, and sometimes it can be volatile. It's my home as well, and whatever happens, I'll never fear getting on a plane and going there. Shooting DIG has been known here as something that's troubled me since it's inception on many levels. I too pray for peace, the safe return of the boys, and praying that the series can and will be safely completed. ~ellen

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Re: Dig Series

Post by thunder » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:30 am

The guardian isn't a neutral source, there are no such thing. But it presented different POVs. And to make up my opinion, trying to keep myself neutral, I can't base my take on this on the statements from one side. A lot of different sources say the same thing, but I didn't bother to post them all here.

What I know: 3 Jewish teenagers disappeared from the West Bank. Possibly (and using my gut feeling, probably) kidnapped by a Palestinian group. But I don't know that yet. There may be other reasons for them to have disappeared, and there are other political groups than Hamas (both Palestinian and Jewish) on the West Bank that may have done it as well.

What I know is that Hamas will use Israel's reaction to gain more support on the West Bank, and Israel is using this situation to arrest their Palestinian opponents. So this situation may come out of control, and we don't even know what happened to these teenagers yet.
That's what my problem is...

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Re: Dig Series

Post by a.p.k. » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:45 am

thunder, I know it's always the heart wanting to say "both sides" this, that, and the other.

But there are no Jewish groups that would do this. And nobody on the Jewish side orchestrated this.

My 16yo son hitchhikes to his school, too. He does it as the standard operating procedure of all kids who hitchhike here ... instead of the stereotypical image of a hitchhiker with their thumb out for a ride, they hold their arms out with their cellphone in hand and their thumb literally on the speed-dial button for the police. This is standard, along with other rules about whose car you actually get into and who you go with and where you sit. And the idea being that if something untoward happens, your finger on that button presses and the police get instant notification.

The Palestinian groups have for two decades been using kidnapping as a very specific tactic and have publicized and proudly announced their intention to kidnap Israelis, soldiers or civilians.

There are truly two sides to every story, but that doesn't mean all things are necessarily equal.

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Re: Dig Series

Post by thunder » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:59 am

I'm not saying things are equal, but I try to stick to the facts before I make up my mind, And I find this situation confusing.

There are Jewish settler groups on the West Bank that conducts terror attacks against Palestinians and even the IDF which are there to protect them. It's not a black and white situation. It's very far fetched that they would attack Jewish teenagers, but if they can do that and frame Palestinians for it, and to stop the peace process (or rather what's left of it) - It's not completely science fiction. Although, I have a stronger feeling that some Palestinian group is behind it.... But I can't know that - It hasn't been proven yet.

I thought the Israeli Government went out too early to blame Hamas, and it also seems like they are using the situation to arrest Hamas leaders (and others they regret releasing as part of the peace process deals). But maybe they have more evidence than they tell us. For Israel's sake I hope they can prove it, because the international reactions will be pretty tough if they are wrong. And the more people Israel arrests and kill in this search the more Palestinians will join the more extreme groups. I understand the need to strike back though, but it may have been too much too soon.

ln419

Re: Dig Series

Post by ln419 » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:54 am

The thing unfortunately too is history. Hamas, PLO, Fatah, they have a repetitive history on their side. They DO the same type of terrorist crimes over, and over, and over. They set up camps to espouse Jewish and Israeli hatred. Children are taught (yes, TAUGHT hatred from the time they are toddlers). Israelis aren't brought up like that. The majority of Israelis and Jews are disgusted by the settlers who cause violence in Judea and Samaria and dearly wish they would stop...they're giving us ALL a collective "black eye'. As a.p.k. stated, NO Jewish Israeli would EVER pull a stunt like kidnaping 3 HS kids from their path home on the eve of the Sabbath. It's not in our conscious to DO such a thing. You just have to know their history and see how they love to repeat it. When they say "We just want ALL of Israel and all the Jews wiped off the map"...they mean what they say, they were part of Hitler yemach shemo Final Solution 70 years ago, and they're trying to finish it today. That may not be in today's newspapers, but it's in history books. I'll try and find you the source material.~ellen

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Re: Dig Series

Post by a.p.k. » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:33 pm

thunder wrote:I'm not saying things are equal, but I try to stick to the facts before I make up my mind, And I find this situation confusing.

There are Jewish settler groups on the West Bank that conducts terror attacks against Palestinians and even the IDF which are there to protect them. It's not a black and white situation. It's very far fetched that they would attack Jewish teenagers, but if they can do that and frame Palestinians for it, and to stop the peace process (or rather what's left of it) - It's not completely science fiction. Although, I have a stronger feeling that some Palestinian group is behind it.... But I can't know that - It hasn't been proven yet.

I thought the Israeli Government went out too early to blame Hamas, and it also seems like they are using the situation to arrest Hamas leaders (and others they regret releasing as part of the peace process deals). But maybe they have more evidence than they tell us. For Israel's sake I hope they can prove it, because the international reactions will be pretty tough if they are wrong. And the more people Israel arrests and kill in this search the more Palestinians will join the more extreme groups. I understand the need to strike back though, but it may have been too much too soon.


First of all, the Jewish settler groups on the West Bank that conduct attacks against Palestinians and the IDF are entirely and completely doing acts of vandalism. Vandalism against property. Which is contemptible and vile and should be condemned in the strongest terms by the Israeli government and should be prosecuted and dealt with absolutely. But they do not kidnap. Nor do they promote kidnapping. The other thing they do is build hilltop settlements. Basically that means they go up to empty hilltops in the middle of the night and put up tin houses that are suddenly there in the morning. Vandalizing cars and even cutting down trees or building houses in very rushed fashion overnight on hilltops is *not* the same as murder or attempted murder or kidnapping.

It is not legal under Israeli law and should be treated as all crimes are treated. But it is not physical attacks on other human beings right to life.

(The cutting down trees bit is another issue entirely. But it does get a lot of press around the world, doesn't it.)




The "need to strike back" is not involved at this moment. The need to find three boys who were on their way home from school and have gone missing (is that better than "kidnapped"?) is what is involved. They are presumed to be alive still.





As far as the terminology you used, "arrests and kill in this search," it's very telling.

Yes, there are arrests. And as they're done by the army, there have been violent incidents when the arrests happen. But for the most part, there haven't been. I did hear that there was one death over the last few days of operations, which is one death too many. But your phrasing makes it sound like it's just SOP. Which is utterly false. Just from a simple glance at this reality: If Israel were "arresting and killing" for all these years then don't you think that the total number of deaths in the entirety of the 100 years of the Arab/Israeli conflict would be higher than the total number of deaths in the 3 years of the Syrian conflict? The simple fact that the number of Arabs who have died in 3 years in Syria is far greater than the total number of Arabs and Jews combined who've died in the 100 years of the Arab/Israeli conflict tells you that there's something different going on than the propagandists would have you believe.

I will not ever say that Israel is perfect, or even behaving well, in any of this. But there are a number of falsehoods that get repeated so often it's almost bizarre and which take on the status of gospel in some places, and very specifically those lies make peace less likely. Because those of us hoping for and working for peaceful coexistence have to live with what's real. The rest of the world's perpetuating lies make the extremists on both sides dig in.

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Re: Dig Series

Post by thunder » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:08 am

No matter who I'm talking to about this, I'm labeled a member of "the opposite camp". Just shows how polarized this is. Palestinians don't like my POV any better, if that's of any consolidation to you.

Sorry for using the term killing, but I read that a Palestinian teenager was shot during the search. Reading it again, I see that's not confirmed information. So sorry about that.
I don't believe that a group of 150 Palestinians, among them high ranking politicians was inolved in the kidnapping. So yes, I stand by my conlusion that Israel is also using this incident to fight Hamas (the conclusion may change if I get more information), which I don't think necessarily is a bad thing in itself, but the methods may lead to more support for Hamas instead if crushing them. I don't think Israel or any Jews had anything to do with this (allthough I can't know that), but Israel is using the opportunity to arrest Hamas leaders - so far without evidence that Hamas did this. I don't know what to think, frankly, must be so easy for you guys just having to consider information from one side.
ln419 wrote:The thing unfortunately too is history. Hamas, PLO, Fatah, they have a repetitive history on their side. They DO the same type of terrorist crimes over, and over, and over. They set up camps to espouse Jewish and Israeli hatred. Children are taught (yes, TAUGHT hatred from the time they are toddlers). Israelis aren't brought up like that. The majority of Israelis and Jews are disgusted by the settlers who cause violence in Judea and Samaria and dearly wish they would stop...they're giving us ALL a collective "black eye'. As a.p.k. stated, NO Jewish Israeli would EVER pull a stunt like kidnaping 3 HS kids from their path home on the eve of the Sabbath. It's not in our conscious to DO such a thing. You just have to know their history and see how they love to repeat it. When they say "We just want ALL of Israel and all the Jews wiped off the map"...they mean what they say, they were part of Hitler yemach shemo Final Solution 70 years ago, and they're trying to finish it today. That may not be in today's newspapers, but it's in history books. I'll try and find you the source material.~ellen
Fatah has changed their methods and language, and it's leaders are no longer denying Holocaust, and they recognize the state of Israel. They used to be terrorist, and there were some very nasty terror attacks before. Hamas is a different organisation and they don't recognize the state of Israel... and still perform terror attacks. Then there's Islamic Jihad... and others... During the second intifada, most terror attacks were performed by Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Palestinans aren't one united group, LN. It's been a civil war between Fatah and Hamas since 2006, before they decided to try to cooperate again this spring (I can't see how this can last, though, but if the Palestinians want their own state, they can't be at war with each other). Yes, I know about the propaganda i Palestinan schools, and I don't think that promotes peace in any way. Also a major problem is that Palestinian athorities blames everything they do wrong themselves on Israel. It's not a well functioning state, but everything that's wrong is blamed on the occupation - not on their own corrupted rule. And unfortunately, since humans rights are broken by Israel too, a lot of Palestinians believes the state propaganda.

I know about the conspiracy theory that claims the Palestinians had a finger in the Holocaust. No serious historians are saying this. A Palestinan leader (Husseini?) met Hitler in 1941, trying to convince him to invade so Palestinians could have their own state whithout the Brits and the Jews. Claiming that the photo from this meeting proves that Palestinians had anything to do with the final solution is a very, very long stretch. It's in the same league as saying CIA was behind 911, or claiming that the Haavara agreement from 1933 proves that the State of Israel was founded by Nazi Germany. :!: Your post cearly shows that there are propaganda at work in Jewish circles as well, LN.

There's a memorial for Baruch Goldstein in Kiryat Arba, that I've seen with my own eyes. And I've seen the bullet holes in the Ibrahimi mosque in Hebron with my own eyes as well. Maybe these settlers wouldn't perform terror themselves, but it looks like to me they approve of it. And Yitzhak Rabin, wasn't he killed by a Jewish extremist? There are terrorists on both sides.

This conlict has good and bad people on both sides, and both states and their structures of power is very much based on the conflict. I'm not too optimistic about a solution to this. Just hoping the good people on both sides find each other - and start talking. Ï've met both Jews and Palestinans that are saying the same thing, but they aren't talking to each other. Some may say the segregation is necessary because of security, but it's also the greatest obstacle to a peaceful solution.

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Re: Dig Series

Post by a.p.k. » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:41 am

Oh, thunder, I wouldn't argue with you one huge point: that Israel is appreciating the opportunity to whomp Hamas but good. (That's an American colloquialism meaning to "do the job thoroughly," as opposed to a value judgment of good vs. bad.)



Fatah is surely happy about the opportunity Israel has to whomp Hamas as well, since Hamas's MO is to kill Fatah's officers whenever expedient.


I don't want to speak for In'9, particularly because she and I have very, very different views, but I think it's safe to say that she agrees with me that as long as the boys are still presumed to be alive (and they're worth far more to Hamas alive than dead at the moment) that there are few people here who would disagree with using any methods to find them.

In re Haj Amin al-Husseini's stay in Berlin during WWII, I un-Godwin, personally. No interest in bringing the Nazis into the discussion. The conflict is bad enough, as it is. And the Hamas activities are easy enough to see, for anyone with open eyes; no reason to bring in comparisons that just serve to fog the glasses.


Worth recalling that Pierre Trudeau in Canada in the '70s, in response to a kidnapping, invoked the Wartime Act (not remembering the name, but it's something like that) suspending civil liberties and allowing sweeping arrest powers, etc. And Canada was not at war with anyone at the time.



I'm a strong believer in the two-state solution, and the sooner, the better. But I'm also a strong believer that no stone should remain unturned to bring those boys home. For the record, my eldest son is 16 ... yes, like two of the boys who were kidnapped ... and yes, he hitchhikes to and from school ... and he attended the junior high school in Jerusalem that feeds into the high school that the kidnapped boys attended, Mekor Chaim (he goes to a different high school, though). So yes, I'm taking this all rather personally. And I'd rather peace started before he's called to the draft (in a year and a half).

Kidnapping high school students on their way home is not going to bring about independence, and it's not meant to, either.



You're also very wrong that the two sides aren't talking. There are so many peace and coexistence groups on the ground here that you can barely walk for tripping over them. It's the governments that aren't speaking. And not all of those groups are populated by "lefties" or "peaceniks" ... some of them are from the suspicious center of both populations, who know that whatever the circumstances, we have to live together. Because neither group is leaving.

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Re: Dig Series

Post by thunder » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:21 pm

Yes, Fatah doesn't seem too concerned that Israel is turning on Hamas.
a.p.k. wrote: You're also very wrong that the two sides aren't talking. There are so many peace and coexistence groups on the ground here that you can barely walk for tripping over them. It's the governments that aren't speaking. And not all of those groups are populated by "lefties" or "peaceniks" ... some of them are from the suspicious center of both populations, who know that whatever the circumstances, we have to live together. Because neither group is leaving.
I'm glad I was wrong, thanks for telling me that, and for contributing in this topic.
Sorry I've been provocative, but I just want to find out more what people think. :oops:

ln419

Re: Dig Series

Post by ln419 » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:53 pm

If this was somehow able to be consolidated (yes, little chance, but IF by some miracle), there are parts that remind me a tiny bit of Good. There will always be good people on both sides working with radical governments and good people get screwed in the middle...like I say, just a little, but I see some of that in this dynamic. Yes, a.p.k. and I are far apart on certain aspects, and closer on others. But there is not a mm of air to separate us when it comes to this kidnapping thing. When I heard about it Friday am, it could have just as easily been G-d forbid been MY son, or MY nephew, someone I knew and loved, and I could hear the voice "I'll see you soon" over the phone, like every other mother's heart twisted. My sister lived in Gaza when it belonged to Israel and I was there for 3 weeks,(re-watch The West Wing Gaza episode, it was very similar) and lives now in the settlement of Efrat - Thunder, I believe you were there, so I've hung out there too. 2 of my nephews have already served in the IDF, a very close friend's son has been killed in the IDF in Shechem (Nablus), and another's son in Hebron. I've been shot at during the construction of the "separation wall", and my sister was in the supermarket when a suicide bomber (who painted her house) went in, but was killed as he tried to detonate the switch. Yes, it can get VERY personal. I've made MY decision that Fatah, Hamas, PLO, "a rose by any other name" wants to kill Jews/Israel just as badly and pin it on the other. To me, a wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf, stay away from sheep. I just can't trust them. I have a long history and I'm sorry, for ME this dog can't change her spots, there IS NO spot remover strong enough to erase the traumas. Perhaps my next generation...DD has more in common with a.p.k. I'll NEVER understand HOW, when 7 Arab countries attacked Israel in June of '67 and Israel annexed the whole of Jerusalem, there is NOW an issue of an East and West Jerusalem...? How is it that Israel is the only country in the HISTORY of the entire world who has to give back land after they win it after playing war? Boggles my simple mind...Shouldn't we give the 13 colonies to England? Texas, NM, part of CA and Arizona back to Mexico? And what of the Native American Indians? Don't we owe them something aside from casinos? I'm sure Russia owes land to someone, and stuff should go back to other borders in Europe...nope only Israel. I'm sure I sound incredibly stupid, probably am. I just think the Jews are entitled to the land they were given by the world in '48, since the Arabs have TONS of land, let them deal with these people. The Israeli's made the desert bloom, the Palestinians/Arabs have NEVER, not ONCE ever created a THING, they're sitting on oil, LOTS and LOTS of oil, they've never created anything (aside from several very smart MDs I know who are completely outstanding in their fields and are exceptionally wonderful people), but in general...hate, war, destruction. I have a difficult time. Which isn't to say I don't deplore how Jews like Baruch Goldstein and Meir Kahane acted. "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? Very good, the whole world would go around blind and toothless!" Fiddler on the Roof ~ellen

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Re: Dig Series

Post by thunder » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:55 am

LN, you have your reasons to feel the way you do and I'm not judging. I can understand you, but I can't agree with you, if that makes any sense.

History lesson (skip if you don't want it) :mrgreen: :
When countries belonged to kings, then war between kings resulted in one king taking the country of another king, and could do with it whatever he liked. But that was long ago.

With the Enlightment (around 1700 - 1800) came ideas of fundamental rights and with them the right to freedom and property. There wasn't international laws at the time, but it changed the way war was fought. The powerful countries started to respect each others borders more, and wars were fought over areas that could be disputed, rahter than trying to take each other over completely. Then ideas of national state came at the second half of the 1800s (with that also came zionism, wich is a form of nationalism.) The idea that each people should have their own state and rule themselves. It became harder for a country to claim that they should rule over another, because the people in the other country had the right to rule themselves (Worth mentioning that the modern democracies were under development at the same time). Problem was that the different ethnic groups were spread out on different states, and there were conflicts between the big states in Europe because of this.

At the same time, there was race for colonies, which resulted in some international deals for how to colonize areas. The European countries at this point thought that even if they didn't have the right to take over each other, they could take over "savage" states. The race for colonies resulted in more competition and conflicts, and alliances.

To make it short, it ended up with 2 world wars, and the world understood that this couldn't happen again. So the UN was founded to prevent future wars, and to protect human rights, The international laws were made stronger and the world now had an organization to make countries follow them. One can argue that the UN isn't very effective in this, but it's probably better than nothing

According to international laws today, all countries in the world need to respect each other's borders. There is some understanding that a country can occupy another area to defend themselves. I.e. there's an understanding (from some, at least) that Israel has the right to defend themselves, so they should be allowed military presence in areas outside their own state. But the world is reacting with sanctions when Israel builds settlements to put their own people on the land that is not given to them. Because Israel is breaking international law doing this. USA is not criticizing Israel for having military presence in the area, but to take land from Palestinians and place their own people in those areas.
The European Union has sanctions against Israeli companies working in the occupied areas, but not companies only working inside the State of Israel. As the USA and European countries also decided to sanction Russia for taking the Crimea from Ukraine
Maybe you think these international laws today are wrong, and it should be the right of the strongest – like it used to be in the old days. But it is to prevent the world being destroyed by wars.

I spoke to a rabbi (I think his name was Ardie) in Efrat, and he said the only way to have peace in Israel (and with that he meant the Land of Israel, not the State of Israel) is for all the Palestinians for go away to Arab countries. Problem is that the Palestinians is “promised” land in the same area… and the Arab countries doesn’t want them, either. According to international law, Efrat is an illegal settlement. But it’s gonna be hard to move it, because my impression was that it had been there for a while. And Ardie started to talk about killing people if someone was to throw him out of his home.

Peace Now had a solution that Palestine could have land from Israel in return for the settlements, but that was getting harder because so many settlements had been built. Their solution was to keep some of the biggest, but that some had to be demolished as well

Palestinians and Israelis need to find solutions that everyone can live together. In one state or two. Most sensible thing is probably two states, but as Israel keeps grabbing land… And what will Israel do when they have grabbed all the land that should go to Palestine? A one state solution? The birthrate among the Palestinians are much higher that among Jews. They will be a minority in their own land. And living in the same land, there eventually will have to be equal rights as well… if Israel still wants to be called a democracy. I don’t know where Israel think they are going with this to be honest.

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Re: Dig Series

Post by a.p.k. » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:34 pm

thunder, the rabbi you spoke to doesn't speak for all Jews or Israelis any more than Abu Hamza alMasri speaks for all Muslims or Arabs. First.

Second, the history lesson is very nice but not necessary. You left out the bit that the Arabs only came to Palestine as an occupying, conquering army in the 7th century, (after the Roman occupation that had morphed into the Byzantine occupation), and then proceeded to occupy it for the next nice long time, including the Jews who were there, and proceeded to build over the Jewish holy sites (not letting the Jews enter them at all), etc., with assorted breaks in their occupation for Crusaders, etc., and then the Ottoman occupation continued until after WWI when the British were asked by the League of Nations to be the occupiers for a time.

The Jews threw off the yoke of that long occupation with the help of the UN vote to partition its homeland in 1947. The Jews welcomed the vote for partition because they knew that they could only be rid of that occupation if they agreed to share the land with the settlers that the occupation had brought, who had, after all, been there for generations by then. So what else could be done? No choice but to partition it. The Jews accepted that partition with heavy hearts, but accepted it nonetheless because it was better than continuing to live under occupation.




The point of that history bit is that you say the Jews are "land grabbing." Which land is that?

Just one very simple example by way of illustration of how distorted the situation is:


The Gush Etzion region, where the three boys were kidnapped from, was land that was purchased by Jews in the early 20th century from various Arab landowners. Jews built communities there that were repeatedly destroyed by Arabs in pogroms, and the Jews repeatedly rebuilt them. And then when the UN voted for partition, and the neighboring countries attacked the Jews in response, and in the war that ensued, Jordan conquered the land of the Etzion bloc of communities. And Jordan occupied it from the 1949 cease fire until the 1967 war, when the Jews captured it.

So. In 1967 the Jews returned to land legally purchased (under British rule and Ottoman law, no less) and rebuilt the communities of the Etzion bloc. And the world considers those illegal settlements and a land grab.


Are land rights transferable by war? If so, then Gush Etzion is Jewish land, because the Jews captured it in 1967 from the Jordanian occupiers.
If land rights are not transferable by war, then Gush Etzion is Jewish land, because the land was legally purchased in the '20s under British law, and the Jews only totally left it when they were expelled during the '47-'49 war by the Jordanian army.





Seems to me you're ignoring the Arab land grabs. Which is what the entire conflict is about.

The statute of limitations on occupation, I call it. At what point in their occupation were the Arab occupiers deemed to no longer be "occupiers"?
And if Israel sticks it out that long, then will it also deemed to no longer (in your view) be called the "occupiers"?
Last edited by a.p.k. on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dig Series

Post by a.p.k. » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:42 pm

And your comment about Peace Now's idea is actually one that each Israeli gov't (including Binyamin Netanyahu, who is not now nor has ever been my candidate for PM) has proposed: It's called land swaps. And the land swaps are just that, swapping land from within the "Green Line" border for the large "settlement blocs" within the West Bank land that the Palestinians want for their state.

But which every time it has come up in negotiations, the Palestinian ruler has refused to accept (even when their negotiators said it was expected and accepted that there would be landswaps.)


So are you saying something new? No.

And what does any of this have to do with three teenagers being kidnapped on the way home from school?





For what it's worth, Mahmoud Abbas also agrees that they've been kidnapped. He's actually condemned the kidnappers. Mazal tov. Hoping that maybe the kidnappers will give a damn what he has to say. But I doubt it.

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Re: Dig Series

Post by a.p.k. » Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:01 pm

Sigh. Last point.


You asked where Israel thinks it's going? Israel has been trying to go nowhere. To live in peace. To get negotiations from the day right after the '67 war. When it offered the entirety of the land it had conquered in that war back to those it had conquered it from (Egypt and Jordan, who had respectively occupied Gaza and the West Bank until then) for recognition and peace. Before a single Jew had moved back into Judea/the West Bank, before a single Jewish settlement existed there. The offer was refused entirely.


(Worth pointing out here that in exchange for full recognition and cessation of hostilities, Egypt got the entirety of the Sinai in 1977. It was offered Gaza as well but declined to take it.)


Israel's demand for recognition by the people it is attempting to make peace with ... the Arabs ... is very simple: It is a demand for the recognition that the Jews are the indigenous inhabitants and that the Jews just as much right to their sovereignty as the Arabs have the right to sovereignty in Arabia and wherever else Arabs have sovereignty. That the Jews are not going anywhere, and that the solution is not for a hudna (as Hamas and other Palestinian groups insist), but for a complete cessation of belligerence and hostility.

That's where Israel thinks it's going.




And for the record, the belligerence didn't begin with the Six-Day War in '67, it didn't begin with the settlements, it didn't begin with the nakba/partition, it didn't begin with Haj Amin alHusseini, it didn't begin with the Peel Commission or the Balfour Declaration, the British mandate, or even Theodore Herzl.






The current operations in the West Bank would stop as soon as the three kidnapped teenagers are returned.

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