Lost Girls talk about "Archie" (Spoilers)

[Antoni Bandzior]

We also need to remember, to Archie's defense, that at the time only therapies available were LSD, electroshock or lobothomy. Se definitely not much of a "good" therapy we think of today.

[servalan]

We also need to remember, to Archie's defense, that at the time only therapies available were LSD, electroshock or lobothomy. Se definitely not much of a "good" therapy we think of today.

Yes, I am very suspicious of Cary's psychiatrist's methods. But I suppose the use of LSD was in its infancy then, and we know much more about it now.

[thunder]

I've finished it now... and I also watched the documentary "Becoming Cary Grant," because I wanted to get some more background.

I liked it. The acting is very good, at least with the actors in the larger roles. The story is compelling enough to make me want to see the whole thing and not just fast forward to Jason's scenes (which have happened a few times in the past). It's not a new Jason-favourite, but I liked it.

Some issues: Just because I like ranting.
There's a thing in biopics, not just this one, where they have the lead character sit somewhere and talk/comment about events in the movie. So we get so se uncompleted scenes, and then the person just sit in a chair and explain the rest. Why? Why not just write this into the story. At least with this one, it wasn't as constructed since he actually held these talks in the 80's. But seriously: Show, don't tell.

I'm a high shcool teacher, and I have worked for 18 years now. I have gotten to know a lot of underprivileged teenagers during the years. Since child hood many have been rejected by their parents, bullying, refugees, child abuse, poverty, etc. A lot of trauma, awful stories, I don't understand how they can function, some of them. Not one of them have been a**holes. Trauma can definitely can cause problems, and a lot of them struggle because of what they have been through. Still, they are compassionate, and they are able to care about others. Being an a**hole is a choice, and there's no excuse. Cary Grant had a lot of trauma, but he chose to treat people badly, because he had the power to do so. He saw the pain he caused, and he still did it, because he only cared about himself. I'm so fed up by this movie cliché, that if a character has had a tough childhood, people should excuse their bad behavior.

The makeup: They make Jason into a hybrid between himself and Cary Grant. I think maybe, like the some of you, I was distracted by the makeup in some scenes. In a few times, the tanning is a bit uneven, so he looks a bit dirty. and the hairline, like Servalan mentioned. The prosthetics changes a bit throughout too. And when he is in his eighties, he wears so much prosthetics that his face doesn't move like it should when he talks and smiles. Since he looks different, I am kind of reminded that I see Jason acting with a lot of makeup, so I probably wasn't transported by him like I ususally am. I was thinking, maybe it would have been better if he just looked like himself with a bit of tanning, and maybe some aging in the last scenes. It's very obvious that it's Jason wearing makeup, and even if he is convincing as Cary Grant, I still can't avoid to notice the makeup.

[servalan]

Everyone is different though, and you were dealing with teenagers, not adults, plus they are not film stars. The difference between them and Cary Grant is big in various ways: the time and place, the society he came from and lived in later, his age. Plus there is the "Hollywood effect". We all know that some film stars are a pain in the behind because they believe all the adulation, and think they are better than ordinary folk. Jason seems to be an honourable exception for various reasons, not least his wife. He could have ended up as an alcoholic.

Cary Grant wanted to be a star and became one. I think it must be very difficult for some people to remain normal in that culture. He must have wanted to believe he was great after all the negativity of his youth. Sadly he seemed unable to empathise with his wives - but if the film is accurate, he knew all the marriage failures were his fault not theirs.

I agree with reviewers who say it would have been good to see more about the other marriages, and see if all the divorces were caused by the same thing - and also to learn what wives 1 to 3 thought about Cary Grant. There is a big gap in the story.

[Anniemouse]

I think that gap regarding the marraiges 1-3 is a massive gap in the understanding of Grant. The incident regarding Sophia Loren was far more complicated than the programme covered. She seems to have been another who left him.

[thunder]

I have taught adults too, in the beginning of my career, come to think of it. Former drug addicts, homeless people, prison inmates. Basically high school drop outs for more or less dramatic reasons who wanted to try to get an education later in life. I was one of the youngest in the room. They taught me about life, I taught them social studies.

They were all nice too.

Trying to clear up my previous post here, because I probably didn’t explain what I meant very well.

Annie, I agree that to really understand Cary Grant, it’s hard to do that just looking at this series, because they skip a rather large part of his life. (That would take more episodes.) The Sophia Loren affair could be a movie in itself.

I don't know enough about Cary Grant to explain why he did the way he did, and even if it says "this is a true story" before each episode, I still will take it with a pinch of salt. So this is just based on what I think from the story they told in this series (and some from the documentary that I watched).

With a childhood like that and growing up in the family he did would have a lasting impact on him. I have no problem to understand that he had trouble in his relationships with women, and Dyan Cannon like we saw in this. But the things he made a choice to do to her, or say to her, even if it caused her pain, he didn't apologize, or tried to make it better it in anyway. That is him using his power as one on top of the food chain to be an a**hole. He didn't change before she took the baby and left, because Jennifer couldn't be replaced by a younger and more "willing" woman. He changed when it caused him pain, and then he saw the benefits of being nice. He was able to be nice, even if his childhood traumas were still the same. Behaving better made him feel better. A life lesson most people learn earlier, but better late than never. (This is just my analysis, though)

Servalan, since you used Jason as an example: I don't know Jason from other than what he has chosen to share in interviews, so I will never claim to know him personally. But from what he has told, he has some baggage that's not always easy to deal with. I still have, after over 15 years following his career, yet to come across someone who met him, worked with him, or interviewed him who has something bad to say about him. Jason chooses to be nice, despite all the s*** he has had/has to deal with. It's a choice.

I’m just a little annoyed that I see more and more in movies and TV that the makers think they need to explain why a person is abusive to another person. That's a choice. It's not the same as having commitment issues, trust issues or drug issues, for that matter.

[Anniemouse]

Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers.

Thunder I think you made some wonderful points. I think one thing that struck me was that we are talking about a Brittish man born in 1904. What he did struck me as something I recognised and that he buried his pain and anger within, and never addressed it until he reached his 50's. Going to see a Therapist was rare. My Dad fought in WW2 and never mentioned what he saw. No mental health help or after care. My dad served his country and bore the damage for the rest of his life in silence. No one spoke about trauma until recently, especuially young men. In fact you could make the arguement that it is only really happening now. Add in the usual guffing of The English stiff upper lip and I can see how these things festered. Silence was the nrm and it killed people and damaged those close to them.

It is interesting with Cary that he sort of wiped out Archie, the sad thing is that I wonder how different his life would have been if John Jr had had the benefit of modern medicine and lived.

I recall the opening of the eps gave a statement which was ambiguous which felt a bit odd. Some of the incindents were so unpleasant that I need to knwo how acurate they were. The reason why I picked up on the music was that one song seems to hint at sexual exploitation of a 14/15 year old boy during the Vauderville troup years. And what on earth was happening during the gigolo era. He cannot have been more that 17 at the time. What extras did that entail.

Cary shut everything down about his past. He never addressed anything and he was the worse for it. Sadly those like Dyan also bore the brunt.

Hollywood did not help either I can think of two other actors who were dangerously chaotic and were not nice to women.

I think it speaks volumes that he never gave interviews.

I still feel we only have half a picture of him.

[Antoni Bandzior]

Ok, first that comes to my mind if it comes to comparing Jason to Cary, there's no way that it should be done.
As Jason shared some stories about himself he is quite aware of his problems, even if he doesn't speak about them very often. He is an alcoholic and a drug addict. He is doing well, at this point of his life, taking care of his problem and dealing with emotions. But it's never a finished battle and he is very aware of it. No one goes into any addiction out of boredom, but to deal with deficiencies, overabundance or other emotional problems. Jason chooses to fight and he chooses to act nice, help others, be generally a very nice person to be around. But we don't know about his own struggles, mood changes, or other urges that might be toxic. I've seen him angry twice and that's the moment he looses his shit, and polite masks are going straight to hell then. We know a public persona, scraps he shares, not what's inside. But definitely it's his choice to not act on anger, frustrarion or other unpleasant feelings and to be nice and good to people as much as he can.

As for Cary, even those elements shown in the show very vividly show us that he abused power, used his connections to chase people, get to them, and make them do what he wanted, destroying some weaker ones in the process. He had multiple mental problems from OCD, through narcissistic personality, tendency to manipulation, and very uneven self esteem. He used alcohol and drugs. As many people in the industry he had externally driven self esteem, and he probably needed external validation to go from day to day, because he hasn't his own self-worth imprinted. His past gives us explanation to why he was the way he was, but shouldn't be an excuse to redeem him. It was his choice. And he had power, money, and all connections he could imagine to change things for the better, and yet he chosen to be selfish, manipulative and oppressive.

I worked in jail for several years, and many of my patients were from pathological families, neglected, abused in every possible way (physically, psychologically, se*ually)suffering powerty, raised in certain systems that shaped what they should think and how react to things. And yet, some of them chose to be nice, even if they were in jail for some mistakes they have done, because they never knew they can live differently. And they never had resources Cary had, and I'm not talking about money, but about good, useful in this line of work, look; social abilities, IQ, charisma.
Our behaviour is always a choice.

That's why I think his "change" of heart was just ostensible. He might have been thinking he's changed, but I don't think he actually did. We don't know how he shaped his daughter. Narcissistic persons often "produce" very empathetic children. And it's not a superpower for the child. It's their defense mechanism, to deal with constant emotional needs they have to fulfill for their parents. Response for trauma bonding. We don't know how he was acting on all those business meetings, what techniques he used to achieve "good business" results. I somehow don't believe he was suddenly all fixed because he found a purpose. His daughter was just a plaster on his wounds.

I have a good friend who is an actor, maybe not Hollywood level of fame but very recognizable here, in Poland. And as good and entartaining company he might be on social gatherings, he is a pain in th a** in relationships. He is using his charm, and look, and fame to get what he wants, and who he wants. Later on he just feels sorry about all those hurting humans, but doesn't really changing his behaviour. So it's some kind of pattern, that's easy to get what you need at the moment and difficult to break and act differently, in order not to hurt others.

[thunder]

That's very interesting, Antoni B.

I think it's interesting to study power structures and to see how human behavior is making the social environment abusive or not. A lot of it lies in how the people on top decides to use their power and influence. They have the power to do good or bad, even if they themselves has experienced abuse in the past.

I just read an interview with the Swedish author Jan Guillou, who has written a semi biographical novel called "Evil"/"Ondskan" (Swedish) about the teenage boy Erik Ponti who is based on himself. He was abused by his father while his mother chose to ignore it. He became aggressive and violent himself and was kicked out of school. His mother sent him to this very posh private school where the older students were given a lot of power to disipline the younger students, and it was a very violent and abusive environment. Even if Erik is trying to change his ways when he comes to the school, it's also very hard for him to see the abuse his friends, and after a while himself too are experiencing. In the end, he is turning to violence and fear tactics himself to fight the system (even if in the movie at least, it can be argued that it's self defence). I have only seen the movie, but it's also being made into a TV series now (It is available to watch in Sweden and Norway, that I know of)

The interview was done to talk about the different adaptations, and Jan Guillpu was asked about how it was seeing his own personal story adapted to the screen. He said there there were pros and cons, but what he really didn't like was the writers for the TV series had chosen to explain why the father is so abusive. He said that this can't be explained, some people just are evil. The are evil because they choose to, and it doesn't bother them. They are evil because other people let them, because the system gives them power to be evil. I think this is interesting coming from someone who used to be abused, and who was abusive and violent towards others.

I haven't seen the series or read the novel, but I can highly recommend the movie from 2003. (It's not a pleasant watch, but it is a very good movie). Fun fact: Gustav Skarsgaard, who played the top student abuser in the movie plays Erik Ponti's dad in the TV-series.

This was a bit on a side, but since I read this today, and we are talking about something similar it here, I thought I'll post it since I can see some similarities. When there's a system that allows people with power to be abusive, and no one dares to say anything or try to stop them. Then there will be abuse. But it's up to that person with power to decide what they want to do with their power. not everyone is like Trump and "grab them by the pu**y", and it looks like it's harder for a Hollywood producers to get away with sexual abuse now. Harvey Weinstein is in prison now, but for how long was he allowed to keep going while everyone knew about it and was talking openly about how he treated women?. The Hollywood system, (like some other businesses too) allows people with power to be abusive, and some choose to be.

[Antoni Bandzior]

It's interesting with the Evil story, I might lurk into it ☺

And I totally agree with you about the environment. There are ones that will allow you to be as violent as you wish to be. And sometimes it even requires strength to break the circle.
All military formations(at least in my country) are full of aggression, abuse, mobbing. And you often can become a victim while breaking their patterns, or try to stop the violence. And it's not even on the line of guard\policeman-prisoner, but between officers on high ranks as well. The whole system based on "commands" Is just a playground for all kinds of people with problems that very easily leads to power abuse. But it's different from "stars", it's a just being on the side of law that gives you almost complete impunity.

People from screens, have power of love that is given to them from those who watch or listen to them(doesn't matter if those are influencers, actors, musicians). They can do with that energy whatever they can, because they have attention and respect, and sometimes when "effect halo" is working as well(fact that beautiful people are perceived as more nice and smart) they really can influence wide public on many ways. It's either their choice if to use it to help someone or indulge themselves.
I, for a single minute, never believed that in this environment where everyone's wealth and fame depends on how they'll be perceived, that they show what's happening inside, behind the cameras and stages. You have fame, and there's huge chance that even if you commit a crime, a public opinion might save you. You just need to make them believe that you are right or you are poor victim of false accusations.(we have seen some examples of it in last few years).
In this environment it's very easy to loose a grip on reality, since you are not living amongst regular people, from outside your line of work. You either have your collegues or fans and clappers around. It must be exhausting to play and fake all the time(especially if you are creating your image from scraps). So I think those who are lucky enough to have a life outside of the industry, are able to still walk firmly on the ground. And it's easier for them to stay nicer, more real, and good to others. But as weird as it might sound, I think that to stay that way, you need a support system, that would remind you, that you are just a human, nothing better or above the rest of humans.
It's probably tricky to get just enough attention you need to boost your confidence and your self-esteem, to feel better, if your mental construction requires it, and not to fly away as an inflated balloon.

[thunder]

Yes, I think it's interesting how the social systems can turn abusive because some people use their power in the wrong way. There has been some negative stories coming out from Norwegian military as well. In the last year, it's been some cases of sexual harassment and mysogonism. What's interesting, is that it looks like it may not be all over, but in some camps. So even if the system is similar all over, it's still about how the people on top use their power, and how they handle it when someone reports bullying and sexual harassment. etc. There has been a problem in the military that instead of firing a bad leader, they promote them instead. So the remove the leader from the subordinates who complain about them, but they still continue as leaders in the military. I don't understand how they think this is going to work out. There will be no change of culture if the abuser remain an powerful positions within the organization.

Annie, you make very interesting points about people not being open about mental health at the time. I was thing that psychoanalysis-therapists probably were avialable in Hollywood at the time, but Cary Grant who didn't even make interviews if he could avoid it wouldn't want to put himself through that kind of therapy. So he went for the drugs instead. (Sorry I thought I posted about this yesterday)

How was LSD therapy meant to work? Did it involve talking about the trip afterwards, or was it just taking the pill under supervision? I can't imagine it having any positive effect, other than help a drug addict take drugs... (which isn't positive to begin with?)

I still feel we only have half a picture of him.

Yes, I think our talk here speaks volume of that in itself. We watched the show, and we still try to make sense of it. I must say I highly value this group, to talk about Jason's work with. I learn from watching his work, but even more by talking to all of you about it.

[Anniemouse]

I have found this thread eye opening. Thunder I think her said in the Documentary I watched on him. that LSD sort of opened up his feelings and he felt better for it, but for me considering the trauma he went through I do not know what the benefits were supposed to be from the drug. Has any other project opened up such debate on the forum. I just wish they had been tighter at times with the project; eg you would think that by Cary phoning Sophia Loren he was just randomly calling her, rather than they had been having an affair that she had ended.

[thunder]

I think we have discussed other movies extencively too, but "the essays" in this topic is a bit out of the ordinary. I think it's a lucky chance that we have seen this at about the same time, and that even if we have some criticism, we want to talk about it. It's not just the series in itself, we talk about the themes in it too, and let the discussin take us in other directison as well.

I like this though, maybe we should arrange for everyone who wants to join in, that we see the same movie/series in about the same week, and then we have in-depths discussions about it. I wouldn't mind to rewatch some older movies/series. We can call it The Lost Girls Film Club or something.

[Antoni Bandzior]

It's excellent idea. Talking about projects and emotional impact it has\had. Or about topics that are important in certain productions, that can lead to discussion.

Here, I think the whole thing is just frustrating: the story, how it's shown, emotions that triggers and things it skips.
Looking at the bigger picture it's good if an art delivers such turmoil, because it opens minds to different solutions and making us dig deeper.

[thunder]

I think so too. With the series, I thought it was OK, but I really enjoy our talk about it.