Lost Girls talk about "Archie" (Spoilers)

[thunder]

This topic is for our opinions and thought after we have had the chance to see it. I think I probably will have to wait for a little while before it's available for me to watch, but feel free to express your thoughts here.

[Anniemouse]

Just binged watched it. It was amazing. I will have to muse over some of the main points for later, but here goes on some of my early thoughts. Jason and Laura were amazing. The other cast were just wonderful. I got lost in it and at times you thought you were actually looking at Cary not Jason. Special mention to the other actors who played Archie as well.

Some thoughts on what to keep an eye out for;




Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers

The soundtrack is fascainting and in EP 1 the song played over the vauderville scene is eye opening and gives you food for thought.
Jason appears in a micro Hitchcock blink and you miss him at the end of ep 1 in the alley
There are some wonderful and funny improv or at least they feel like they are with Jennifer at the end of Ep 4 that brings in a Harry Potter reference.

How Archie survived is staggering and you can see that his and Dyan's relationship is problematic, and probably never going to work. Some of the events are shocking. However he seems after Jennifer was born to have found his inner peace and ended his life a happy man.


Well worth the wait and Jason deserves praise for his portrayal of this talented, broken, controling, vulnerable, handsome and lonely man.

You are all in for a treat.

[thunder]

Thanks, Annie.
I hope I don't have to wait for too long to see this.

[Anniemouse]

I have been looking for that link for the date of the US screening and cannot find it. Is is still on.

[thunder]

The Brit Box premiere is December 7.
https://tellyvisions.org/article/cary-g ... eam-bin-us

I'm not sure if it's only Britbox in America and Australia, or all over. I hope it's all over.
...or I will have to think about going on a trip to the UK, so I can see this.

[Antoni Bandzior]

Definitely not in Europe

[thunder]

urgh...

Me and my sister are talking about going to the UK a for a couple of days right before Christmas. So if it's not available to watch for me before then, I will watch it then.

[Antoni Bandzior]

I'll be in London 7-9th December (was suppose to be at another event with our boy, but he's not part of it anymore ), I'm meeting Jeremy Irons instead
Anyway, I'll try and watch it while there

[Antoni Bandzior]

Finished it.
Actors are doing amazing job. Really. Main cast is good, and obviosly dedicated to show it the best they can with what they have.

After binge watching whole night I wrote a long review, which is my grumbling for 3 pages straigth about how unhappy I am about writing, the way they cut/showed the story and other meta level stuff about the creation. I would post it but I'm afraid of leaving spoilers behind and being banned forever from this group.

[thunder]

This topic has a spoiler warning. Anyone who who reads it, do it on their own responibilty.
Just bring it on, Antoni. (If you want to share it though, don't feel like you have to)

I am afraid I won't be able to join in the talk before I can find a way to see it.

...also: I've banned two people from this forum, and it is because they turned out to be stalkers. One of them is the reason I can't keep the registration open.

[Anniemouse]

Antoni B

That did not bother me so much, but I can appreciate many people will not like the jumping of the time lines.

I have a had a few days to mull over it and I think If you are worried that your opinion on Cary Grant will make you hate him, please do not. I do not think of it as a hatchet job. For example he is not a violent man to Dyan. The LSD which is well know was not an illeagal drug at the time and he was using during his therapy sessions. He was a man who was trying to be better but failing.

It is interesting that Cary/Archie did have successful relationships. George Burns, Grace Kelly, Audrey Hepburn, Fay Wray and her husband the writer John Monk Saunders, (who gives him his first major acting break) Mae West (who breaks his film career), His manger who he had from the day he was a unknown to the end of his life, Alfred Hitchcock and his wife Alma, and his housekeeper, all seemed to have seen the best of him.

There is a a lovely moment when he talks about Marlyn Monroe with such tenderness. You feel his respect for her.

His deamons seemed to have emerged when he fell in love. He could not handle rejection. He seems to have much more of a home body and liked the quieter life as an older man.

As an outsider you can see how his relationship with Dyan was going to fail. She was such a lovely bubbly carefree outgoing spirit. The scene with Danny Kaye is fascinating. Danny is at the home after Dyan sings on his show dancing with her and Cary just dissapears to the bedroom on his own brooding. Danny wants Cary to dance with Dyan.

What I also found interesting that his last wife seems to have been more a fit with her personality. She is a homebody and plays mind puzzles with him and was born in the City of Bath which is 12 miles from Bristol so he married a local lass in the end.

I believe if like Antoni B you do not like the time jumping you will struggle. I was ok with it. Was it just the format you did not like AB.

[Antoni Bandzior]

Ok, here we go, please don't kill me



It's 5am. I haven't slept, binge watching Archie.
So my freshly awakened thoughts while writing about my contentment and frustrations might be a bit highlighted, since I'm writing it without a second of good sleep afterwards.
I was waiting for this production to hit the screens for more than a year already, being very excited and impatient, especially seeing all those beautiful promo pictures. And…

I didn’t like it. I didn’t like it at all.
Not because I am a Cary Grant fan and reluctant to watch my hero impersonated. I never was his fan. For me it were just black white & movies, my brain couldn’t cope with for some reason, making me nauseous. So the persona presented on screen was almost completely new to me.
Things I liked – costumes and cars used in the production. Also Laura Aikman is a really spot on doppelganger of Dyan Cannon.
Acting is superb, that's undeniable. Main cast is definitely dedicated and on a mission to deliver given story as best as possible. They did great amount of digging about the lifetime story of a famous "lady killer", which is very obvious in promotional interviews, but not so much visible in the plot. Which is really not their fault but a writer's, who's cut it like an onion for some sauce, that's meant for main dish, but forgotten in the cupboard.

As you might probably noticed we get to the matters I didn’t like already…
The whole thing should be heavily labeled, with trigger warnings, but I suppose since it’s not a fan fiction it’s not necessary. Or is it?
Emotions shown in the first episode were very uneven. Scenario is switching between comedy and drama in seconds, and doesn’t leave space to process those feelings it piques. There is lack of emotional liquidity between scenes. They seem not connected and the whole construct of a show as a series of memories shouldn’t be an excuse for the lack of coherence, since there’s no information about Mr. Leach suffering a dementia that’d legitimize the trick.

Funny and cute scenes are pushed forcefully into the really sad story about heavily damaged man, who suffered a lot and made other people really miserable, while deeply unhappy himself. Sugarcoating is just a bow to his daughter, I presume, so the audience couldn’t notice what a monster he was straight away. And maybe some way of luring and softening viewers, so they won’t get too depressive while watching it, because if stress would be too high who would watch it till the end at all?
Threads of the story seem unfinished, unexplored properly, showed one-sided, and mixing timelines looks like a way to hide it.
And since the whole creation was based on Dyan Cannon book and memories, it should have shown more of her own struggle as an effect of an abuse she experienced from his hands.

The only story that seems fully finished here is a history of grief, loneliness and fear, that has haunted Elsie Leach and shaped her whole life. Showing us scraps that impacted Archie's mind, and how he copied her patterns, reflected her fears and internalized some of her issues, writer leaves us with nothing but conviction that not a single of Archie's relationship could be healthy in any way. So from this background we can safely assume that his social and relationship issues applied equally not only to his partners, but to a daughter as well.
Therefore, as for the love for his child, where others might see dedication I'd spot obsession, fear and compensation for his own deficiencies. The lack of a wider inside in this matter increases the need for deepening the story with facts that only his daughter could relate to as recipient of his fatherhood and deliver it to us. But since he hadn't have to change her, but created her from the beginning the way he needed, she might be unable to see the harm that was done to her.

I wasn’t able to stop seeing Jason in it – as Jason, even if he had tons of prosthetics glued to his face. Haven’t seen any difference from his own stage behaviors during panels, with just different mask put on. I felt like his own fragments were slipping through all the time. But maybe I’ve seen too much movies with him and don’t know how to be detached anymore. To my defense I must say that I'm not native, and therefore can't truly appreciate enormous job Jason has done in the voice department, playing with accents. It just sounds English to me, with moments when it doesn't, when Archie switches masks to be Cary Grant for a moment. And that mannerisms even I can recognize.

Furthermore, make-up department or whoever is responsible for prosthetics could do a better job with his chin. It’s once visible other times not so much. While barely noticeable on Jason, it’s totally nonexistent on younger actors playing the role. Not to mention his father’s eye color is changing with actors, so they didn’t even bothered to give them contact lenses so they match each other. Also showing a stroke on camera should be dealt by make-up departments as well, not just faked muscle contraction.
Summarizing - the whole story feels a lot like just money digging idea, to show some nice clothes and views. Shallow, without going deeper into the problems of any of the characters in this creation. An abusive, obsessive narcissist, that gets redeemed just because he has found a happy ending for himself.

A very fake fairytale where someone has forgot to mention skeletons in the closet. But maybe this is just Hollywood at its best.

[Anniemouse]

I actually think that Cary Grant needs a really in depth documentary of him. I think Antioni we do not get a more rounded portrait of Cary/Archie as this covers only a few years of his life and his fourth marraige. So many massive gaps needed filling in but that was not the remit of this project. In short he gest the world to love him and he is still damaged. I think the psycological damage he uses against Dyan is shocking. What is horrifying is that he seems to be aware he is doing it and cannot change. I think this will divide the forum as to its worth as a project. Without doubt Dyan did the right thing in leaving. Also he never fought the divorce case so that was telling.

Will I stop watching Cary Grant movies no. Would given the chance would I have dated him also no.

Antoni would a different straightforward structure been better for you?

I wonder if this project will produce the most varied opinions of a Jason project ever.

[Antoni Bandzior]

Oh, I definitely think that his story needs a little more digging and exploring.

For me, personally, I didn't strugle with the time jumping, And I liked the remiscences of him watching his younger self. That showed that he did some work, and had some insight at the end.
I look at the time jumping as creative tool to show some hidden, surprising elements, while here there was none of that. That's why I feel like it's been forced to cover lack of explanation for lots of threads.

I'm looking at it as a psychologist, and when some mother/father background was hinted, because not even showed properly, there was no indication of any consequences of his actions. Neither for him nor his victims. We don't know story of his previous wifes and relationships, and even the story of Dyan is just cut, as she got the divorce ande leaved him happily, while she was suffering for a long of time because of all the traumas he put her through.
And even in the movie is said, that's the same every time, with every woman, so he had a pattern, that should be explored as a whole.

Well, show has good starting point to start discussion about mental health, people being fake on social media or in Hollywood/movie industry, and not being able to be themselves for various reasons. I so far had seen only one absolutely bad rewiev about Archie(total roast), so let's see what happens when it will be officially released in US.

It's good that Jason took the strategy of being all "humble and unworthy", while talking about all Archie's mental problems that aren't shown in the show and that he is tying to spark conversation and broaden people's horizons in this area.

[servalan]

I have just finished watching the last part. I watched it all over 3 days.

I feel a bit disappointed - not in Jason but the whole thing. It's very difficult to put my finger on why.

Good things: the acting (everyone). Harriet Walter played Mrs Leach brilliantly. Laura is a dead ringer for Dyan at the age she was playing, when compared to a photo at the very end (there is a string of photos of the real people the show is about, shown with the end credits). The costumes were very good, and I could see that Cary's suits were so well tailored, plus one scene with Cary in a coat over a suit, and the coat looks bespoke tailored too. Cinematography was generally excellent. I loved the old yellow car in one scene.

Jason of course was very good in the part, but I agree with Antoni that I could always see and hear Jason. Maybe we are just so used to him? But the emotions and expressions were played exactly as usual. The voice: now and again it sounded just like the Tony Curtis take-off from Some Like It Hot, and other times it just sounded like Jason doing quite posh English - I could hear Lucius in there. The tan stopped before the hairline in some scenes, and it's such a dark tan that it was obvious. I am only superficially aware of Cary Grant, having seen some of his films but not studied him, so cannot say whether, say, the walk was just right or not.

I had no problem with zipping backwards & forwards in time, in fact I liked that part.

I think part of the disappointment was that almost all the story has been covered in interviews and reviews, so I felt that after watching four episodes I didn't learn an awful lot extra. I kept waiting for something surprising to happen. The main surprise was Cary "getting rid of" Dyan's dog (it was never explained what actually happened to it). That was an extra piece of controlling behaviour I didn't expect.

I don't think Cary Grant was a monster. Yes, he was controlling. As observers and not as his wife, we can forgive him because of his background. He wanted to control his life because he had had no control as a boy. We also have to remember that when and where he was born, male & female roles were much more rigid. He was so much older than Dyan, who wanted to have fun in the 60s. But he was never violent, and he never prevented any of his wives from leaving him when they wanted to, which is what really controlling men do. He was also portrayed as having enough insight to realise it was his fault all his marriages failed (except the last one).